Binuscan cms server

[R&D]

does anyone have an opinion about the binuscan cms server and workflow? I'd be grateful if I saw reviews about it... also, what kind of investment are we talking about?

Thank you

[Magnus]

We use the CMS server for all our offset-printing. It's great If you want to print ISO-standard with a small amount of work. It processes all kind of PDF's but we'v seen some problems with transparent objects so we use PDF/X1a to be on the safe side.. It's fast and I can highly recomend the product. The cost is about 2500€ i think..

[Ian Mackenzie]

Binuscan has been around for some time. We saw this solution at Drupa and I even have some notes here that I took down on the product. It is based off an ICC empirical measurement model that then utilizes aggressive GCR. Therefore it is no different than other(GCR) solutions except it attempts to make the process more automated and less consulting intensive.



That idea is wrought with potential problems – how do you ensure that the printed press targets are printed well before you modify your separations based on the measured chart. There is big cost in running ICC target on all your stocks. The ICC process utilizes gamut compression, which will limit the quality success of the approach.

[Magnus]

"How do you ensure that the printed press targets are printed well before you modify your separations based on the measured chart?"

The software checks the print quality when you set up or recalibrate a queue. So you can be sure that the target are well-printed.. It also give you suggestions of what to do if the target is off. For example "increase Cyan density by 0.2". Or ask you to linearize your equipment.

"There is big cost in running ICC target on all your stocks. "

We got queues for paper class 1, 2 and 4.
I can only speak for our company. But since we start using the software our "not-matching-proof-press-stops" have more or less been eliminated. We have very demanding customers who want's there prints to look exactly like there/our proofs (Fogra39 for example).
We can do that now, and the ink-optimization (ink save) is just a bonus.

"The ICC process utilizes gamut compression, which will limit the quality success of the approach."

It does? Thats nothing that I or any of our customers have seen..

What method would your recommend if one wants to print similar to ISO-proofs Ian? Curves in the RIP or change of ink or..?

[Magnus]

Edit: Just viewed your Profile Ian and I see that your a vendor of ICEserver, It seemes like the same kind of technology? Of course we can go from RGB to Press with CMS server aswell (increase gamut), but we like to print accordingly to the standard.

[Achtung | Spitfire]

Dear Mr Mackenzie,

I would be more than happy to get know how you have concluded that CMS Server has re-invented the GCR, invented just after World War II, like all the other so called "ink save" solutions?
In fact CMS Server does not blindly limit or save any ink at all.

Are you sure CMS Server only base its services/workflows on "empirical measurement model"?
It sounds on you that CMS Server is something that is for the one that does not like standards? For us who use it is opposite: it is the way to control the printer rather then being controlled by it.

You see "potential problems" but have you really seen this problems in the reality?
How come users of this colour management server win ISO (or any desired standard) competitions all the time and any day in production.
They do not only print within the ISO standard, with CMS Server they also print for example Fogra 39 exactly, less then delta 3 on all patches in a IT8).

Are you sure it is such a big cost to make test prints on for example four stocks and two types of screening? 2 hours in the press and 1 hour measuring, all by yourself.
And of course you get assistance direct in press from the solution: to make sure the "printed press targets are printed well", to quote you.
The costs to have an ICC/ISO consultant/guru (self proclaimed or not) playing with rip-curves are far more expensive: we have lots "empirical" proof on that.

May I ask you one more question regarding the subject:
Can you explain how CMS Server can produce a neutral black with a total of 233% ink that is 4 levels (L) more black than the 330% we find in ISO Coated v2/Fogra 39.
In addition to this: could you please explain that in the same job a dark saturated red can have a higher total then the neutral black.
Is that possible at all with conventional ICC-profiles with settings for UCR, GCR, TIC, K start, stop etc.
And finally: how come CMS Server calculate this without any settings at all?

Looking forward to answers and more discussions.

Cheers
Andreas

Binuscan has been around for some time. We saw this solution at Drupa and I even have some notes here that I took down on the product. It is based off an ICC empirical measurement model that then utilizes aggressive GCR. Therefore it is no different than other(GCR) solutions except it attempts to make the process more automated and less consulting intensive.

That idea is wrought with potential problems – how do you ensure that the printed press targets are printed well before you modify your separations based on the measured chart. There is big cost in running ICC target on all your stocks. The ICC process utilizes gamut compression, which will limit the quality success of the approach.

[Ian Mackenzie]

Dear Mr Mackenzie,

I would be more than happy to get know how you have concluded that CMS Server has re-invented the GCR, invented just after World War II, like all the other so called "ink save" solutions?
In fact CMS Server does not blindly limit or save any ink at all.

Are you sure CMS Server only base its services/workflows on "empirical measurement model"?
It sounds on you that CMS Server is something that is for the one that does not like standards? For us who use it is opposite: it is the way to control the printer rather then being controlled by it.

You see "potential problems" but have you really seen this problems in the reality?
How come users of this colour management server win ISO (or any desired standard) competitions all the time and any day in production.
They do not only print within the ISO standard, with CMS Server they also print for example Fogra 39 exactly, less then delta 3 on all patches in a IT8).

Are you sure it is such a big cost to make test prints on for example four stocks and two types of screening? 2 hours in the press and 1 hour measuring, all by yourself.
And of course you get assistance direct in press from the solution: to make sure the "printed press targets are printed well", to quote you.
The costs to have an ICC/ISO consultant/guru (self proclaimed or not) playing with rip-curves are far more expensive: we have lots "empirical" proof on that.

May I ask you one more question regarding the subject:
Can you explain how CMS Server can produce a neutral black with a total of 233% ink that is 4 levels (L) more black than the 330% we find in ISO Coated v2/Fogra 39.
In addition to this: could you please explain that in the same job a dark saturated red can have a higher total then the neutral black.
Is that possible at all with conventional ICC-profiles with settings for UCR, GCR, TIC, K start, stop etc.
And finally: how come CMS Server calculate this without any settings at all?

Looking forward to answers and more discussions.

Cheers
Andreas

You seem to be asking me questions to which you already know the answers.
I am merely responding to the original request asking if anybody had any opinions on Binuscan. What you have quoted back to me is my opinion. I hope that helps the original post for I have no interest in debating you. My guess is that you either work for or own Binuscan. Before any more time is wasted, please check our web site. Instead of introducing my compnay's products here - something that I call "thread hijacking" - I simply am stating what my exposure is to the CMS server. I live in Chicago and have never heard of it in our market before.

Cheers,
Ian

[Ian Mackenzie]

Edit: Just viewed your Profile Ian and I see that your a vendor of ICEserver, It seemes like the same kind of technology? Of course we can go from RGB to Press with CMS server aswell (increase gamut), but we like to print accordingly to the standard.

We actually merged with FineEye 3 weeks ago.

FineEye Color Solutions and Chromaticity to merge - Printing Industry News from WhatTheyThink

ICEserver does 3 main things, Magnus:

1. Increases visual appeal of print
2. Adheres to standards (G7 Extreme, for example)
3. Decreases manufacturing costs

We have a vp that just started with us who is also on the Board of the IDEAlliance - the organization that oversees GRACoL and SWOP in North America.

Cheers,
Ian

[Achtung | Spitfire]

Cool.
I asked questions since you seem to know so much, negative things, about our product.
I on other hand, I do not know anything of your product and I would not have any opinions about it even if I knew all the magic about it.
I always make sure I spread the word of what we invent and do, but I do not spread the word of something I am not aware of.
We both represent products and should avoid "hijacking" the subjects for our own purposes.
Cheers
Andreas

[Ian Mackenzie]

Cool.
I asked questions since you seem to know so much, negative things, about our product.
I on other hand, I do not know anything of your product and I would not have any opinions about it even if I knew all the magic about it.
I always make sure I spread the word of what we invent and do, but I do not spread the word of something I am not aware of.
We both represent products and should avoid "hijacking" the subjects for our own purposes.
Cheers
Andreas

Andreas,
I did not intend to say anything negative about your product. Please understand that I was responding to another person. I apologize if that offended you.

We are proponents of all technology that makes print better. Our industry needs it.
Cheers,
Ian