JetPlate

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

I agree with what iCtP says I just have one question.

Glunz & Jensen , iCtP systems take a plate which looks blank (but has a protective gum like coating to prevent it from aging

How many manufacturers and vendors are there for the iCtP plates? As iCtP mentions JetPlate has to use the Kodak Craftsman, and only that plate. Are their multiple sources for the iCtP system?

[iCtP]

Question from "Internal_R&D_Analyst" . "How many manufacturers and vendors are there for the iCtP plates? As iCtP mentions JetPlate has to use the Kodak Craftsman, and only that plate. Are their multiple sources for the iCtP system?"

Glunz & Jensen already have partnerships with many of the large plate manufacturers, as they already make and brand processors for them. They chose the route to make plates under license.

Therefore, currently there are two different manufacturing suppliers/sources currently for iCtP plates. By June 09, it is expected this will rise to 3, to cope with the global supply and demand of the plates. However, other than they type of cardboard box they are packed in, it is not possible to identify the source. As they are made under license all plates are to the same spec, and behave the same.

The reason for this, is that unlike single source suppliers, IF one supplier stopped making the plate, given there are multiple suppliers; the channel would not be affected while Glunz & Jensen transferred the manufacturer that ceased, to another supplier. Given that Glunz &Jensen are a global supplier my understanding is there will always be a minimum 2 suppliers at any one time.

Having said all this, generally the real question is not how many suppliers are ther, but more "can I get them from anywhere else". Well actually, you don't buy them from Glunz & Jensen direct anyway. Like Afgfa or Kodak plates, they come from your local dealer. And any local dealer that sells Glunz & Jensen iCtP systems has the rights to buy, distribute or hold stocks. Although I think if you have asked a dealer to put the effort in supplying and supporting a CtP system for you, unless there is a huge difference in prices, or they simply can't supply then I think there is a lot to be said for continuity of supply.

[Internal_R&D_Analyst]

Thanks iCtP. I wasn't sure seeing as the plate is really just a sheet of aluminum.

[iCtP]

Thanks iCtP. I wasn't sure seeing as the plate is really just a sheet of aluminum.

Its not just a sheet of Aluminium.

Aluminium, as it stands is not Hydrophillic, i.e. it will not attract water in the background on the printing press.

So wrt plates, Aluminium is bought by plate manufacturers, then grained and anodised, after anodisation it has a Post Anodic Treatment placed upon it. This is normal for almost ALL types of plates Analogue, Negeative , Positive, Thermal Violet... (all plates that is except Except VIM).

Grain depth, structure ect.. and the type of post anodic treatment, defines the plates ability to hold water, to age, and how it grips to the top coating.. and therefore partially how it impacts run length.

So, the next stage, is a coating goes on the plate. For standard Anaglouge positive or Negative plates this is a light sensitive DIAZO. BUT, it also acts to SEAL the anodised alumium, and this prevents oxidation of the plate surface, (Rapid aging of the plate, that causes a background )

IF the plate is to be used as a newspaper blank, then no diazo coating goes nown, but either a protective gum coating is used, or the plates are supplied to the newspaper and the newspaper -desensitises them, to remoe any start of oxidation.

iCtP, does not use a raw blank plate, there would be no grain structure. Although it does use a conventionally grained and anodised plate substrate.

iCtP chooses a specific grain structure from the varrients available, to create a base level of resolution and more importantly to enable their ink to attach to the base substrate and achieve 50,000 + impressions. This surface is similar to a Thermal CTP plate surface. In addition, if there is no coating, the plate will oxidise, so to prevent this, during manufacture, the Diazo coating rollers are lifted, and the plate has a fine GUM protective gum layer applied, however an element is added to this gum layer which is designed to work inconjunction with the ink, to further, significantly improve resolution.

It IS possible to take a standard plate and remove the diazo in a processor then image it in a Glunz and Jensen PlateWriter, however the result is like putting blotting paper through a normal inkjet printer...the dot is likely to be 2-6x larger, text looks fat and hairy and reverse text will fill in at around 8-10pt. Also, depending upon the plate chosen the run length may drop off too a measly 1,500 impressions.

Using Glunz & Jensen's own iPlates, you get sharper 28micro dots, crisper, sharper text...and 4pt reverse plus the plate will run to 50,000+ impressions... infact, I heard one customer reach 300,000. (But I think that was kind of unique ;-) )

So... there is a little more to it, than justa sheet of Aluminum. :-)

[InkjetCTP_waste_of_money]

As a printer for over 30 years, I have seen technolgies come and go, I have tried to save money and cut costs from companies with unethical sales tactics and people that claim their machine will save you moeny... Well in this case; this is the farthest from the truth my fellow printers!

Your best bet, buy a used laser system, even if the cost is a little more and the warranty is not as good as a new one, at least you will be happy with the end result, the quality and speed your operation needs.

Anyone that knows inkjet technology, (you must know something about it, there is one sitting on your desk!) You know the inherent issues with these machine, the head clogs, weak printing, uneven solids, streaking, and to think your printing out of all the colors your printer prints, these clowns only print from one channel!

The speed of these machines is horrible! JetPlate can print a lousy quality 720dpi claiming 8-10 plates per hour, with 13x19 plate, while G&J prints the same plate at 1440x1440 and might be lucky to produce 4 plates per hour.

JetPlate sells their machine boasting AM screens - The conventional dot of 4 color files are more likely to moire than your old rescreened film. Since the shape of the dot is not a smooth dot but a stepped dot because of the nature of the horizontal printing the Epson machine prints, the dot shapes are more like small rock shaped. Thus the reason G&J doesnt even produce conventional dot. If you print files with 60% tint screens you will see this issue. They also claim to be able to produce up to 175lpi, not likely, the inkjet dots are not small enough from the Epson printer to produce this quality, there fore the dots collide at about the 80% range. The image will be plugged up in the 3/4 to shadow tint screens thus forcing you to modify your file to lighten the images. The JetPlate machine can produce the same quality FM screens at 3 resolutions, however the calibrations fluctuate, the screen tints are uneven and overall quality will not even come close to a laser system!

G&J plate writer - These 2 machines are identical in nature, G&J just accepts the fact that the machine will not produce a quality AM dot so they dont even offer it, unless they tell you it can do it in the RIP. They only use the 1440x1440 resolution thus producing quite a bit of gain on the press, especially for older presses, this also produces a grainy print. The Epson machine produces great quality, but is meant to print out of all 8 channels at the same time, thus hiding alot of the single channel flaws.

The consumeables on both machines are greatly under quoted, it is a sure bet you will run through 2 times the amout of consuemables that the sales staff from each company will tell you. I have talked with JetPlate users from the old Pieces (The original inventors of this technology) to the newest machines, most have stated they use twice the materials to prouduce print ready plates. This is due to the shear problems thorughout the imaging process; Marks on the plate, toning, uneven tint screens, scratches, fingerprints you name it it can/will happen. The JetPlate system, claims AGFA, IBF, Kodak, plates are now available, however recent issues have stated that this system does not work with any other plate than the now defunct Kodak Craftsman plate, that with my information has about 6 months of supply left. At that pont that plate will no longer be available. The G&J machine, needs a specially coated plate only availble through G&J and its dealers. The plate is also an issue with availablility.

The asthetics of the machine, G&J wins hands down! The JetPlate machine looks like it was built in a garage, it would appear that the above mentioned bankruptcy has taken its toll on JetPlate since they have had the same look since the original Pieces versions of these machines.

Also there are rumors that you cant even get through on the phone to JetPlate support, I actually tried calling them 3 times and I was not able to get through although there was an answering machine that allowed me to go to the technical support department, nobody answered there either. I have heard from 3 previous customers/dealers of JetPlate that they dont even have any technicians working for them at this time. One unmentioned dealer claims they fired the main guy there last year, since then it has all went downhill.

From one printer to another, my colleagues! Take notice on this and do not put your company and yourself into this position with these companies! If you really want to look at it, then contact the customers that are not on each companies preferred customer list! You will see that the claimes in this statement are true and will save you alot of heartache and trouble in your future.... "JUSTSAY NO TO INKJET CTP!"

[DonBlock]

That was quit a rant..... but everyone has their own opinion. Since you have decided to contradict some of the facts about this technology, and have inserted some of your own, I am curious if you have bothered to test plates off of the iCTP, or again just making an opinion?

The facts are simple..
Does it have the quality or the speed of a laser system - No!
Have the G&J made the claim that it is better - Again No!
Does it have a market - Unequivocally Yes!

People are oversold every day do to lack of knowledge, research, or just by a good salesman ( my matter of opinion ). If you have fallen into one of these categories in the past, hopefully you have learned from it. For those who are not afraid of new technology, and yes not all of it will work as advertised, you should research all that comes your way to see if it has a fit for you, your customers and their needs.

Nothing is Global as a solution. Get what is right for you and work with someone who is willing to provide it by understanding your business and customers instead of just having to meet a quota.

[iCtP]

Ohh dear, it does rather seem you have had some bad experiences.

I can see some direct experience with Jeptplate, but I wonder how much direct experience you have with the G&J system?

I would like to directly comment on an area I feel versed to answer extremely accurately and no, I am not a Glunz & Jensen sales person.

The G&J system, is faster than the speed you quote, (unless you refer to the 1st generation G&J system, now discontinued).. And it is not exactly the same as the Jetplate despite the fact that it appears to be based on the same engine. It is supported through Epson with its own Epson based firmware, and it offers 2880dpi though two interweoven channels. (Which is its standard mode), as well as the others.

It uses an advanced remote support technology allowing G&J support staff and dealers to remotely help you.

plus unlike conventional inkjetprinters, (Normal desktop printers, use pigmented inks carrying between 8-11% of solid matter), the G&J system, is not quite like the circus act you counjour up, but uses a sophisticated 2% solid based diazo in 2 channels and a zero soild load cleaning dispersion in the others... this and modifications in the firmware permit this fluid to consistantly be fired on the relevant parts to sustain the life of the engine and to eliminate the types of clogging seen with desktop colour proofing inkjet printers. Infact, as far as I am aware, since September 07, G&J have only changed 1 single printhead, and this was due to an electrical error. The printhead simply does not clog. Infact in October last year Glunz & Jensen was running a 2 year warranty with the systems. FOC !

Your comemnts on the AM screening I agree in most part with.

InkJet technology from Epson uses 3 descret drop sizes, and AM screening uses a minimum of 100 sizes (representing 1% through to 100%) but in reality due to the fact it is infintely varying in dot size more like 256 (hence the term 256 levels of grey). Therefore, to shoe horn 3 dot sizes from Epson into 256 dot sizes is not possible. So, conventional screening on inkjet is a simulation of conventional screening by printing numerous dots to build the size you desire. The main issues with this, are the starting dot size, and the accuracy of placement coupled byt he accuracy of the feed mechanism of the engine being used.
The sole reason inkjet manufacturers uses an ERROR diffused screen, is to diffuse the error coming from the feed mechanism and therefre avoid stepping or banding. So, whilst you can simulate a conventional screen - thefact you remove the ERROR diffused screening - means this 'feed error' manifests itself and you have a problem.... on colour proofing you can mask this with 'light' versions of the colours, but in platemaking this is simply not possible. This is the reason G&J don't tell anyone you can run conventional screening, and do not offer it (although it IS hidden in the RIP for users to play with, if you want.. and if you accept it is not recommended).

The G&J system's running costs if you get the White paper on the cost of running the machine, covers the inks and the plates and is based upon the reduction is count applied by Epson directly to the ink cartridge and so is highly acurate. If you have figures from other sources or regarding other machines I can not comment.

The link in the last post, detailing Jetplate filing for Chapter 11, was from December 2008, this was for JETPLATE. Not for Picses. They went in 2003? So, lighten has now struk twice for the Jetplate system, thus I dare say you are struggling to get hold of them on the phone.

Glunz & Jensen manufacture for Heidelberg, Agfa, Fuji, Esko Graphics, High Water, Southern LithoPlate and more.... with over 110,000 plate processors manufactured since 1970 they have some clout behind them... Some reliability and some name to protect.

So, I guess that leaves one last thing... "InkjetCTP_waste_of_money"... if you think you are trapped on the JP system and are concerned about the future, contact me directly if you are interested in knowing IF you can convert your system into a G&J system and where to go to get info on this or what it might cost (which depending upon the system you have, may not be excessive). Of course if you beleive all inkjetCTP is the same (and are not aware that Fogra has just validated the G&J system as being a viable alternative to Laser), and beleive that over 285 users last year are wrong.. then .. I guess you can't be swung. And, that too I can respect given the poor service it sounds like you have received.

ATB

[iCtP]

Hi "Don Block",

Now your answer to the rant from the previous poster, seems so much shorter and to the point than mine.... guess I need to practise my answers !

ATB

iCtP

[DonBlock]

On the cont rare iCTP. Other than my spelling errors that I just noticed, I like to be more pointed. You gave a very good explanation for those who read this thread. I on the other hand need to learn more patients for those who have not made a good decision and have to live with the consequences. You would think that after almost 20 years of servicing this industry, going back to the old Compugraphic days, I would have more, but then again, maybe that's why I don't.

[InkjetCTP_waste_of_money]

The Epson printers were made to print 8 colors at a time. NOT METAL PLATES!

The Facts Fellow printers:

After 1-3 months you WILL get a head clog.
You WILL spend on average over $10.00 per plate over the life of the system until you sell it or trash it. (Keep a log)
You will need to change the channel to one of the other colors which will cost you about half of a new $200-$400 cartridge.
You WILL waste 1 out of 4 plates (If your lucky) due to a print issue on the plate.
You will NOT get the posted number of impressions either of these companies are stating, more than 40% of the time.
You will NOT be happy after 3 months with these very troublesome systems.

You can not honestly sit there and try to convince these people that any of these systems (Which I have quite a bit of experience with) is a good purchase. For one thing, all systems are EXTREMELY slow, low quality, inconsistent tint screens from one plate to another, and a failed technology. If you are not an employee of the industry then I would ask that you contact me in 6 months and tell me how you still "Love" your system. The fact is people, do yourself a favor and buy a laser system, you will get reliability, speed and more important consistent (KEYWORD HERE) quality. Do not get drawn into any purchase dealing with this failed technology.

These companies rely on Epson to improve their machines and then simply adapt shrouds, covers, etc to try to hide the true machine under the covers. Epson will NOT support these machines unless the Epson techs are LIED to; as soon as they find out you sent a metal plate through the machine the warranty is VOIDED, only the Technova system will continue the warranty from Epson as they were the only company Epson will back since they use Epson Inks and the poly plates will not damage the transport or the printhead. They were also in the Epson booth at Drupa.

As for testing the G&J plates, As a manufaturer these companies go through 2 -5 plates per separation at times to get your "perfect" set of plates, there a modifications done to your "test" files and the individual company files have been modified to show the "perfect" or as good as you could ever expect (But never get), I have alot more experience with these system than you know.... as well as the poly plates from Technova, Croation inkjet systems, and the Israel systems.

Fellow Printers - If after reading this you are still wondering how "good" these systems are, do yourself at least this, check out the systems and do extensive research on them before you spend 25-50k, which in todays market you can easily purchase a laser system.

1- Ask to see a LIVE demonstration, either a trade show, bring the machine to you (At their cost), or fly you and your best pre-press employee to their demo center. This will allow you to see the machine in action first hand;Speed, quality, operation.

DO NOT LET THEM INSTALL THE SYSTEM AT YOUR LOCATION AS A TRY IT OUT SITUATION.

2- As for company references, get your own! They will give you references from "happy" customers that recently purchased their machines. If you want references, talk with customers that you seek out, that have used the machine for 6 months to 1 year.

3- Ask for complete price lists for ALL consumeables, and about the availability of said consumeables, do not count on their word. Check out these suppliers for yourself. The only Kodak dealer is notorious for selling plates that are not even plates that work with these systems since they are the only Kodak dealer out there at this point. Also remember all these items will be shipped to your location which will cost you money since there are NO local suppliers (Unless there is a large dealer in your area, which there are not many that keep these supplies in stock), they will pass on the shipping cost to you which are not even included in the "cost per plate" figures which the system was sold to you on this pretense. As for "RUSH" costs... figure on doubling your costs! Best practice, buy enough so that you do not run out and you can pay ground shipping prices, at least these prices are somewhat reasonable.

4- Get print samples from these customers, especially the customers that have had the systems for 5-12 months. Ask for 4 color, Halftone (black and white) images with 4-6 pt text, gradients and tint screens. Pay for the shipping if you need to, this will be the best way of reaching your decision. Get as many samples and critique them as best you can.

5- TECH SUPPORT -TECH SUPPORT-TECH SUPPORT!!!! I cant stress this enough. I know one of these companies doesnt even have a technician working for them only sales people trying to be technicians. Ask about remote support, onsite support, service contracts and most of all a warranty!

Ask these companies these questions and get their answers in writing;
- What happens if my printhead gets damaged?
- What happens if the cleaning assembly goes bad? The transport system, timeing rail, feed sensors, paper feed margin issues?
- What about the after market cartridges, since Epson does not sell them, are they
guaranteed to work? and how long will I be down when I run out of fluid?
- What happens if the cartridge I get does not work? The cartridges on these machines
contain dual layer useage chips on them. Epson has made them so they are not easily
reproduced. Most cartridges for the 4880/7880/9880 are coming from China; they have
about a 70% chance of working which means (more than likely) 1 out of the 8 will NOT
work, and you will be waiting for another cartridge at a minimum for 24 hours if you are
not planning ahead and run out of fluid.
- How do I know the technician any of these companies sends out knows the system? Most of your onsite techs will come
from local dealers around your area that have pretty muct the same training as you
received. They are not Epson Techs and more than likely will not solve your problem if it
is machine oriented, they will solve the same issues you will, print issues, calibrations,
feed problems, maintenance. As for the processor for one of these machines, well forget
it, there is no support for that machine from anyone at this pint unless you contact the
manufacturer which I believe is in Europe somewhere. And to the best of my knowledge they have NO technicians capable of fixing this machine.
- These companies mostly warranty their modifications ONLY and try to pass on to Epson
the internal mechanics of the machine. They will advise you to contact Epson technical
yourself, which will require you to have an 8 color print of the status sheet before they
will even speak with you, along with your Service ID code which is in the preferred Epson
warranty card included with the printer. Some of these companies can successfully print
one, some cant since the fluid is clear. Some of these manufactures will contact the
Service company Epson uses directly (I believe this is decision One) and then pass the
cost of this service to you, after telling you that this service is not covered under their
warranty. Especially if you are out of the 12 month warranty that Epson
gives you. After that your on your own. Just to let you know; a new printhead, dampener
and cleaning assembly will cost you $2000.00. I have seen these machine need this
service after 6 months.

As for your "quite a rant" comment, I just hope these people can see through this technology as not a cost saving anything PERIOD! These types of machine will cost you twice as much in the end. Just say no to Inkjet CTP... make the wise decision and stick with Laser!

If you would like I can keep going...... I would suggest you rethink your comments. I did use rather vague points, however due to your comment about my "Rant" I decided to publish a little more than half my complete report.