General Xitron Questions

[duck]

Based on a lack of training and a completely screwed up install, I'm not sure if our issues are problems inherent with Xitron or just specific to us.

First, the trapping. We've been told that you really can't preview or change trap in a ripped job. There is a rip with trap preview option that will give a bright green or red line where there will be trap, but you really can't see what the trap will look like, AND, get this: "If you use that preview and then send to plate, those colored lines will print".
The letters "w" "t" and "f" are barely adequate.
We were also trained on how to change the trap from "None" to "Standard" or "Middle". That can't possibly be the only control we have. What if I want to change the direction of one of the colors? What if just some type needs changed? Is there really no way to check or change trap with Xitron? We were told that if it has problems on press, we can go in and change to one of the other two trap options (and hope it works better).

Also, is it normal to have to mount several shared drives to process a job? We have to mount one to add jobs to the workflow list, mount another one to "roam" (there is not a real preview for ripped jobs), another one has to be mounted from the Mac with the Starproof rip (understandable that you'd have to mount something there for the hot folder to work I guess), and another drive if we want to drop files in to print to our little Prism. Seems like a PITA having to mount several volumes on every machine every morning and every rip crash throughout the day. Just wondering if that's normal or if again it may be a retarded install.

Probably the biggest issue I have is that we were assured up front that we were getting a ROOM workflow. As it turns out, this is not the case at all. We are creating PDFs, dropping them into one workflow for the starproof rip for color proofing, and then if and when OK, we drop that PDF into the "to plate" workflow which rips it (through a completely different rip on a completely separate machine) for the platesetter. Again, install guy says that it really is rip once output many because we'll be using "normalized" PDF's that will be sent to each process. He was then not only unable to explain how we need to "normalize" said PDF's, but also had no answer when I commented that we could've had a ROOM workflow with our old PS/M or Brisque workflows using that same logic (and files would actually work - AND we'd have control over trapping and could preview the job and the trapping in rip and change as necessary).

So far, we are 2 months into this and we spend about 10 times longer trying to fix files and get PDFs that will actually work with the rip than we ever did with either of our old Scitex rips. Someone please tell me that we are just victims of poor training and that this whole xitron "workflow" is not really this incredibly retarded to deal with. My co-worker and I both feel like we just went back in time 20 years technology wise with this nightmare.

[david]

You should visit www.trapping.org and have a look at I-trap.

David Lewis
Lucid Dream Software

[FasterMD]

Wow, I just got up off the floor laughing and crying.

We just had our Xitron Navigator installed last week. Two days of their guy trying to get it set up followed by 1.5 hours of training. We called and asked for some actual training and were told to start writing down all our questions, and when we have a couple give the tech a call and he'll help us out. We're all still in disbelief that a company would actually produce, sell, and install a RIP and not provide any training. Needless to say, we're not a satisfied customer. I sure am glad he got out on time to catch his plane back to Michigan though.

The one thing that saved us was the fact that at the same time it was being installed we also had a guy out here trying to linearize all of our equipment. Had he not been here I'm affraid to speculate on what we would have ended up with...

Sad to see my company wasn't the only one who got screwed on this promise of "training" we were assured of receiving after install.

I'd love to help you with your problems but honestly, we were given enough info to know how to drop our PDFs into the workflow and how to release them from step to step. Anything involving actually setting up the RIP and creating our own workflows beyond what the tech set up was not provided.

Sorry to hear you had a similar experience.

[esmith214]

A suggestion while you're sorting out the training issue:

If you look in the Xitron directory on the server, there should be a "documentation" directory with a few pdf's. The RIP Manager docs run 162 pages and cover everything from set up to daily use. There are also manuals on the base Navigator RIP and a number of options.

Should help you get going.

[bfarrah]

Folks,

I think it's great that there is a place to post thoughts and commentary, as well as questions that allow users to offer help and advice. We put a forum together for our dealers a couple years ago with exactly that purpose in mind. Unfortunately, it didn't get used much and people stopped visiting. Perhaps I should open it up to Xitron customers instead? Let me know your thoughts.

Now to the point of this message; in my position as VP, Support Services for Xitron, I found the two posts here extremely disturbing. Why? Because it's my job to see that these things don't occur. I don't always have visibility to the sales and installation process of our products because we sell through a dealer model. But that doesn't exempt me from responsibility. If an installation was handled poorly, I need to know about it so that I can fix it.

I invite FasterMD and Duck to call me. I will do everything I can to make it right. And I'll make sure you get the answers you need.

Xitron's main number is 734-913-8080.

My name is Bret Farrah.

[Eric Nelsen]

Hello Duck.
I realize its been a while since your install but I just read this.
I am product manager in charge of the software you are talking about.
I don't know exactly what happened with your dealer's install but I can clear a few things up.
Of course you can preview trap. If you need someone to show you how, call us at 734 913 1099.
Editing trap depends upon what you are trying to do.
A decent install setup would have any needed network volumes mount automatically without intervention from you.

The biggest issue is Star Proof. Assuming you have the version that I know - you can send 1 bit TIFF to Star Proof and it will recombine for a proof made from ripped data. You can then use the same ripped data for plates or film.
This is fairly simple to setup in our system.

I think you should call me and I will help you fix this install.

Eric Nelsen
734 913 8080

[Eric Nelsen]

FasterMD,
I don't like to see an install go poorly.
We have thousands of installs and we usually make people happy. So far we haven't done that for you. I bet we can. If you call me I promise to try and make things right.
We have several options available.

Eric Nelsen
Xitron
734 913 8080

[duck]

Thanks for your replies and willingness to help out. Eric and Bret, you may be getting a call from me soon.
Our install guys are coming in tomorrow (Thur. Oct 11), and I may just give one of you a call if the answers these guys give isn't in line with what you've posted.

If we can in fact set this up as a true "ROOM" workflow I would very much like to see it done that way.

We've figured out how to preview trap, but from what I understand we can't really do anything to edit trap without buying more software.

Anyway, we will address our concerns with Genesis tomorrow, and hopefully I can get one of you on the phone while they are here to maybe get a few things straightened out.

[duck]

We just met with our owner, things are going to get worse by the looks of it. We are returning the Prism, Genesis also wants the rip that came with it. After the 2 month install, that machine was finally set up as the machine that controlled our entire workflow. Now they will have to move that back to the other PC they installed (platesetter rip)- this will be a mess I'm sure. And that's if the Navigator workflow is licensed on that machine. We may be looking at using hot folder and doing everything manually.

While we were discussing the implications of that, I insisted that we have them set this mess up as rip once output many like they started to in the beginning. My co-worker Michael insists that it was someone from Compose who informed us that it is *not possible* to set it up as a ROOM workflow.

I'll update when things go further south, but for now, it looks like this nightmare is going to get much worse.
Get ready for some phone call Xitron....

[ShinyBrian]

Hey Duck,
I just wanted to jump into this discussion. We have been using xitron for awhile now and I have to say at first our heads were spinning. It is a very powerful system and the trapping is top notch! You will get used to it. Trust me. The only complaint, if you could call it that, would be that the system does so much and you can do alot with it, it seems to be overkill. Alot of settings and customized things that you can do. The documentation is not that great also. On a side note it's nice to see some xitron techies posting here, they'll get ya straightened out. No worries.