Page layout in Illusitrator vs. InDesign

[JohnS]

On a Windows machine.
I have a client who insists that Illustrator be used for page layout. He thinks that all good business cards, invoice forms, et. al. are done in Illustrator.

I can not convince him that PageMaker and Indesign can be used to produce good printable files.
Why do I want to do this? Just that I' ve been using PM and InDesign for 16 years and am more familiar with them than Illy.

I can see why folding/carton, die cut, tee shirt layout may have better results in Illy; but for simple printed pieces why not ID?

What say thee? Are there that many designers/prepress people that do their work in Illy, or in this day and age are you, in prepress, working with PM and ID files?

Agree or disagree, 'tis OK with me.

[Dov Isaacs]

Adobe Illustrator certainly is an excellent tool for creating complex vector graphics (assuming you can live in only one color space at a time) and, in conjunction with various third party plug-ins (such as from Esko Artwork) for complex packaging.

For business cards or single page applications such as signage, you certainly might be able to get away with Illustrator assuming your text frame handling needs are fairly simple.

But once you go beyond that, you need a page layout program. Illustrator is not a page layout program. InDesign is a page layout program and was designed for multiple page, complex, and graphically-rich layouts. With the exception of some vector effects, InDesign has most of the features of Illustrator; the converse is certainly NOT true.

By the way, you should consider PageMaker a dead issue at this point, a format and program to migrate away from towards InDesign. InDesign effectively replaced PageMaker in Adobe's program lineup nearly nine years ago now!

- Dov

[almaink]

I get a few jobs done completely in Illy, but they are very intricate designs, and for the most part single pages or Brochures. Funny thing is they all end up in InDesign anyway for imposition and output to PDF. The only reason I could see for requesting Illustrator is, thats the only application the client has, and he wants to open the originals.

[LoneGoose]

I do graphic design infrequently - I'm not a professional designer. But even for the simplest designs (business cards etc) I wouldn't dream of using anything other than InDesign.

The only time I use Illustrator when designing is for vector graphics operations that InDesign can't perform - graphs, for example, or 'live trace' or when I need to grab a logo out of an old PDF. (And, I guess, that's probably how Adobe intended it.)

InDesign is just so much simpler for setting up a page, centering things, making guides - all the simple things are just easier in InDesign.

It's also got better typographic controls and that's where crux of the matter is for me - any graphic designer not worried about his/her typographic control should be regarded with suspicion.

I mean, do people enjoy numbering their folios manually??

[John W]

Okay, I'm into this discussion.

Layout (meaning pages) should always be done in a page layout app such as Indd or Qxd (for all the obvious reasons).
Coupons and other one up flat items should be done mostly in Illy IMO. That is because they aften have uneven bleeds, perfs and other post print issues that may be more easily done comencing in Illy (they often must back up in some unusual manner).
Any job that requires Braille must be done in Illy (obvious).
Any job that requires nesting (one item cut into another when imposing to save stock (folding carton or unsquare designs such as a tapered menu).
Any job that contains a cut-out area (meaning silhouette outside a rectangle format) should be done in Illy (it requires a die be made).
Any job that requires enlargement (meaning a billboard or poster) should be done in Illy (for vector quality).

Now the fonts. Historically, cross platform fonts did not work hence the printers' initiated technique. With multi-language documents, accents are a nightmare when crossing platforms so the simplest solution was to outline thus preventing unusual occurances since once outlined, they are objects and generally cannot change when processed. This is particularly valid in pharmaceutical or legal work where the information must be nicely done (for those of you who need to, look up the definition of nice). However, fine scripty type and type in normal page work should always be left as font. This is not always a simple issue, again IMO.

Having said that, there are so many duplicate font brands for the same font that often the printer is unknowingly at risk. Just take Helvetica for example which comes in a new Intel Mac and cannot be easily removed from the system font folder and be replaced with a 'standard' Helvetica. So already before the job is done, you, as a printer, may be at risk of reflow and changes in kerning or tracking. Plus mnay designers have no clue and just use the computer as it comes from the box, unwittingly load duplicate fonts through some font manager and figure the're good to go when actually they are not! And the poor printer gets it in the neck when the job reflows. This, IMO, requires massive education which now none of us seem to have time for. Yes, pdf helps resolve that.

So, the correct application to use varies wih the work and an open mind is indeed the correct approach.

John W

[rich apollo]

> {quote:title=John W wrote:}{quote}
> Layout (meaning pages) should always be done in a page layout app such as Indd or Qxd (for all the obvious reasons).
> Coupons and other one up flat items should be done mostly in Illy IMO. That is because they aften have uneven bleeds, perfs and other post print issues that may be more easily done comencing in Illy (they often must back up in some unusual manner).
> Any job that requires Braille must be done in Illy (obvious).
> Any job that requires nesting (one item cut into another when imposing to save stock (folding carton or unsquare designs such as a tapered menu).
> Any job that contains a cut-out area (meaning silhouette outside a rectangle format) should be done in Illy (it requires a die be made).
> Any job that requires enlargement (meaning a billboard or poster) should be done in Illy (for vector quality).

I agree with the spirit of your post (the correct tool for the job), John, but not the details

One ups can be done more easily in a page layout app, just like multi-page stuff - and ID's bleed indication can make the uneven bleeds A LOT simpler to manage.

Braille just sets up as a different font to be used for embossing, doesn't it? I've never set up anything in Braille.

Illustrator is no better for enlargements than any page layout app. You cite vector quality, but vector is vector where ever it's laid up. Raster is raster, even when it's placed in Illustrator.

Dies are certainly the realm of Illustrator, but as ID continues to evolve that distinction is blurring.

To the original poster - "...the first step is admitting that you have a problem..." It's very difficult to convince someone who isn't listening, but:

A page layout application will collect all the ancillary files (fonts, images, profiles) that are used in the document for you
Page layout apps have better type controls than Illustrator
Illustrator can only support one colorspace in a document
Type can still be outlined - if need be
I believe files sizes are smaller, but you'll have to check
Page layout apps have better type controls than Illustrator
oh, yeah, and
Page layout apps have better type controls than Illustrator

Did I mention that page layout apps have better type controls than Illustrator?

rich

Edited by: Rich Apollo on Jun 11, 2008 12:32 PM

[Point918]

Used to love page layout programs disliked AI (or Illy in this threads parlance) - commercial shops. Forced to use mostly AI in a packaging environment and now love it. So the right tool for the right job.

For single page work I find ID's type controls to be clunky & inferior to AI's.

You really have no choice but to work with what the customer provides. Try to sway them to what you like and works best in your workflow but they are the boss. Or as I like to tell my co-workers we work for the customers, our employer just processes the money.

[John W]

Rich,
Thanks for tyour comments.

>One ups can be done more easily in a page layout app, just like multi-page stuff - and ID's bleed indication can make the uneven bleeds A LOT simpler to manage.

I'm not sure I agree with you and here's why. Most times the art comes in wrong, that is to say, the wrong dieline; once the panels of art are created and are wrong either in width, height, or wrap (face panels must wrap over the folds onto side panels and artists rarely get this correct), it is far easier to bump the masks, adapt to our dieline, correct bleeds or dead cuts as the case may be, etc. Usually, when seeing Indd or Quark docs, the dieline has been placed as an image on top of everything and often does not overprint nor is it on a separate layer. In Illy, this is a snap to fix.
I estimate that 98% of jobs coming in must be totally torn down and rebuilt to be perfect (as perfect as possible) and at that time, we correct for the nuances of the build to make the life of the diecutters and gluers straight forward plus we trap at application level (don't say a thing here because you'd be wrong and I can prove it).

>Braille just sets up as a different font to be used for embossing, doesn't it? I've never set up anything in Braille

No Braille is made from master vector spots because of the 13 different types of Braille (Californian, electronic, English Giant Dot, Japanese, Latvia, Enhanced spacing, Marlburg Large, jumbo merican, etc) so no font can be correct really, especially when providing Braille versions for different countries! There is no real standard language although many European ctns are now done using Marlburg Medium (which is not just a font). Plus #'s are completely different depending where you are in the world and accents to boot. So a master grouping of 6 spots spaced at 2.5mm on center that can be turned off and on to do the spelling and with forced 12mm horizontal spacing (tracking) and 10mm vertical (leading based upon a medium finger width) plus an exact spacing from the edge of the page or carton which tells the blind person which way is heads up!

Hope this helps you understand why we insist on Illy.

John

[Seeing2]

Is a disadvantage of working in InDesign the difficulty of copying InDesign graphics inti Illustrator?

I have been trying to do this with no success yet. Is there a way?

[Tech]

Is a disadvantage of working in InDesign the difficulty of copying InDesign graphics inti Illustrator?

I have been trying to do this with no success yet. Is there a way?

You should not have any issue copy-n-pasting most of InDesign graphics into Illustrator. If you must, you can export your InDesign page to PDF, then open the file up in Illustrator.

BTW, You revived an old thread!